JOEL - I have heard this form of logical fallacy before and have never understood it. If I have a bowl that contains apples, peaches, banannas, and pears and I call them all fruit; does that mean that an apple can also be called a peach?
If a Baptist, and a Luthern, and a Catholic are all Christians does that mean that a Baptist can call himself a Luthern?
I don't understand your analogy because I look at Christianity as a general term for anyone who claims to worship Jesus Christ and believes that they are living His gospel. I disagree with certain principles of "traditional" Christianity the same way a Protestant might disagree with some Catholic doctrines. I understand that there are some important fundamental doctrines of "Traditional" Christianity that I disagree with; but nevertheless I worship Christ; I live His gospel, therefore I call myself "Christian". Anyone who says I am not is being too judgmental in my opinion. They don't know what is in my heart and how I truly feel about Christ. I guess it all depends on who is defining the word "Christian".
In my opinion Mormonism is Christian, but we don't worship Mormon; we worship Christ. We aquired the name "Mormons" by early critics of our church who were looking for an easy non-Christian-sounding term they could call us. Over time we accepted that term so that people would no longer use it in a derogatory way when refering to our Church..

TAMMY - First of all, I should have said that you don't believe "the main principle" instead of saying "certain principles".
The main principle that classifies a person as a Christian is that they believe in and follow Christ. You say you follow Christ, but you follow a different Christ than most other groups who claim to be Christian. The Lutheran, Catholic and Baptist all follow the same Christ. That is the main point and is why Frank asked you which Christ you follow? So no, a Lutheran cannot call himself a Baptist, but he CAN call himself a Christian as does the Baptist does. When we compare a mormon and a Chrisitan, we are not comparing apples and oranges as you suggest we are... now what sounds like a logical fallacy here? When one claims that he also follows Christ and as such is a Christian, and yet does not follow the same Christ as those who made the same general statement in the first place, then that person is trying to jump into the wrong bowl. A fruit has every right to be called a fruit because it fits the basic idea of what a fruit is. A mormon does not fit the basic idea of what a Christian is since they don't follow the same Christ mentioned in the general statement we are discussing. And to make the same statement does not always mean the same thing.
The mormon SEEMS to be saying the same thing as the Christian yet, just as with so many other mormon principles, teachings, and definitions, they are not REALLY the same. Just as you define God as 3 in one, it is not the same 3 in 1 as the Christian believes in. You believe in 3 Gods making up one God. The Christian believes in 3 persons who are each the same 1 God. In other words, Christ is the SAME God as the Father and the Holy Spirit, and not 3 separate Gods, but three seperate persons. The Mormon is very deceptive with his use of definitions and Scripture and, as with many other biblical teachings, the Mormon goes round and round when questioned by someone who wants to go deep in their understanding. That, or else they just say something like, "We shouldn't question that" or "I'll talk to so and so and get back to you on that later, but then they never get back to you.
Joel, I am not one to judge and condemn. I truly do leave that to God. He is the only one who knows if you are truly His. Based on my experience as a Mormon and with Mormons and based upon observation, after looking at what is in front of me I can only come to the conclusion that you do not truly know who God is and what he has done for you. If that sounds harsh, please remember that this is what Mormons say about all other groups.

JOEL - There is only one Jesus Christ. While it is true I might believe in a different deffinition of who Jesus is, I still believe in and worship the same being who is called Jesus Christ in the Bible that every other Christian worships. The Dictionary defines a Christian as the following:

"one who professes belief in the teachings of Jesus Christ." (Websters).
"Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus."
"Relating to or derived from Jesus or Jesus's teachings."
"Manifesting the qualities or spirit of Jesus; Christlike." (American HeritageŽ Dictionary)

You might not care what the dictionary says, but by this deffinition we are Christian. When people(especially non-Christians) ask us who we worship and we tell them Jesus Christ; if they go according to the dictionary deffinition, what else are they to conclude but that we are Christian? In addition to the above deffinition I know that all members of Christian faiths accept Jesus Christ as, uniquely, his or her Lord and Redeemer; so do I.
Even though you don't agree with my deffinition of who Christ is or who the dictionary says is Christian, I would never say you are not Christian because I know you profess a belief in Him also and are trying to live a Christ-like life, as am I. As the Christian (non mormon) writer C.S. Lewis once said:

"It is not for us to say who, in the deepest sense, is or is not close to the spirit of Christ. We do not see into men's hearts. We cannot judge, and are indeed forbidden to judge. It would be wicked arrogance for us to say that a man is, or is not, a Christian in this refined sense." (Mere Christianity, Touchstone, 1996, pp. 10-11.)

Christians of other faiths who go around telling Mormons they are not Christian are not going to have much success convincing them of how wrong they are and bringing them into the "correct" way of beliving in Christ. It may only cause them to take a defensive attitude and remain even stronger in their resolve to stay where they are (kind of like what I am doing right now :-)
It's hard for me to believe that you were once an LDS member and not understand how I feel about this. We are not trying to decieve people into making them think we are the same kind of Christian as everyone else; we are in fact quite bold about discussing the differences.
People have been having this debate ever since the LDS Church was organized and will continue to do so; so I think we are just going to have to agree that we disagree on this and leave it at that.

TAMMY - I am aware that some of the things I say might put someone on the defensive, but I guess I say things anyway because I just feel that there are some things which need to be discussed whether people like to admit it or not.
Also, I honestly believe that there are many groups, not just Mormons, who are deceptive in their use of the Bible and definitions of some words. I'm not saying that every Mormon does this, and I'd even say that most who do it don't even realize they're doing it. The leaders are the ones whom I think God will come down on the hardest. Mainly Joseph Smith for deceiving so many. His deception continues on. His deception still affects me personally, because I see most of my family suffering from what Smith started so many years ago, and that hurts me. I know you don't like to hear me say things like this, but this is just the way it is for me. I also feel that just because we don't like what someone has to say, it should not affect someones willingness to be open to the idea that they may be wrong in their understanding. I try never to take things personally, knowing that the most important thing to me is knowing the truth about God.

Now on to the Christian issue, I can assure you that the dictionary's definition is not God's definition. One of the very first things that came to my mind on the subject is the verse in the Bible which says that He will separate the wheat from the tares. Upon deep thought about this, I came to the following conclusions, the main one being that the key word in that scripture is "HE".
Believe it or not, I actually had never given the issue a whole lot of thought, but I did come across the statement I originally sent to you and wanted to throw it out there to see what you thought about it. And I'm glad I did, because it has caused me to think more deeply on the issue. It mainly just took remembering the scripture I quoted above to come to my conclusions which are: It should not matter to people which definition of Jesus a person follows in order to be called a Christian. As far as the definition man came up with, the dictionary is correct since all people who believe in Christ, whether they have the right one or not, truly feel that they do have a correct understanding of Christ and as such should be able to be called Christian. It should, and does, only matter to God, because as the Bible says, "He will separate the wheat from the tares".... HE will do it. I also thought about what I would do if I were asked to like, sign some petition or join some kind of revolution on the issue. That is something I never would have done or ever will do. It really shouldn't matter to us humans who wants to be called a Christian... God will take care of that someday and by trying to choose who the term applies to and who it doesn't, would absolutely be making a judgement which belongs to God. I'm sorry if I made it seem like I would do this. As far as I know, I never would have... But then who knows, maybe I would have before I had given much thought to the subject... UGH!... and God surely would have layed into me big time about it on judgement day!...YIKES!

It is however true that if someone were to ask me some thing like, "Do you think so and so is a true Christian?" (remember, I mean Christian in the way that God sees it - not the way man defines it in a dictionary. God sees some as true believers in Christ and others as not) So anyway, if someone were to ask me that question, I might say something like, "It seems that way, but only God knows for sure" or else I'd say, "It doesn't seem that way, but only God knows for sure." Even though I have challenged you on the issue, so to speak, I hope you understand that this is the way I think about it. I don't mean for it to sound like I would give an absolute answer as to who is a true believer and who isn't. I truly do leave that to God.
I totally agree with C.S. Lewis whose statement you gave shows that he believes a Christian is someone who is, in the deepest sense, close to the Spirit of Christ. Taken out of context though, I can only guess that he means one of two things. That this "deepest sense" refers to either
1 - someone who has eternal life and as such is a Christian (which is the point of view referenced in the above paragraph),
Or 2 - This "deepest sense" means anyone who has some kind of relationship or another with the Spirit of Christ and as such is a Christian. From perspective #2, I personally believe that the Spirit is with and reveals truth to all people. I believe He works in them all in the hope that they will embrace the truth. So either way Lewis means it, I agree with him.
Joel, lets be honest... I only do exactly the same as you, which is, through observation, come to the conclusion that some people (though they confess to be Christian) are probably not correct in their understanding of the Bible and what Jesus has done for them. If I am judgemental by saying probably, then so are you since we both try and teach others what we believe. The very fact that we do this shows that we believe that there are some out there who are wrong in their understanding. I almost felt like you were trying to make me out to be a wicked person just because I do this. I think that the fact that God will separate the wheat from the tares shows that not all who profess to be Christian/follow Christ, actually are/do. I totally agree though, as does C.S. Lewis, that this is something only God can determine for sure and as such, nobody has the right to say for sure who is and who isn't . But once again, the very fact that we "preach" to others shows that we actually do make some guesses as to who is and who isn't believing correctly and going to be saved unto eternal life. Guesses are not the same as a final judgement. If there is something wrong with me for guessing, there is also something wrong with you for guessing. When you teach someone that they need to be baptized into the Mormon church, you do imply that their baptism, priesthood, and church are illegitimate. That's just the way it is and it is not meant to be mean.
Yes, I was once LDS and do understand that it would have upset me if someone told me I was not a Christian, but at the same time, if they would have told me that I did not fully understand God's love, I would have agreed with them. I would have also been open to hearing why they felt I wasn't Christian and why they felt I didn't know God's love fully, because I simply always felt that there was something missing in my understanding of God's love and I desperately yearned for that. Now I realize that what was missing truly was the correct understanding of God's mercy... indeed, of His love and not only that, but a correct understanding of His holiness. If a person does not fully understand God's holiness in comparison

JOEL - I agree with much of what you said, or at least I understand why you say what you say. The only few comments I might make are:

1. I am not suffereing any ill effects from what Joseph Smith started. I am quite happy and know and understand God's love for me.

2. I realize that no matter what I do it won't be enough to return me to God without His grace and mercy to make up the difference.
"for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do." (2 Nep. 25:23).
See my page on Grace Works and Salvation

3. I don't believe you are a wicked person; we just disagree about some things.