GREGORY - Isn't the 76th section in the Doctrine and Covenants
in conflict with 1 Corinthians 15:40-42? - the latter
does not teach that there are 3 kingdoms in heaven,
but rather shows several glories within the one
kingdom of heaven. Celestial and terrestrial are
mentioned as contrasts between the glory of heaven and
earth. Heaven is one dwelling, not many - (2 Corinthians 5:1).
JOEL - This is a matter of semantics and how one interprets
it. To us the words "glory" and "kingdom" mean the
same thing. Although the Corinthians scriptures only
mentions the Celestial and Terrestrial, it does
mention three glorys represented by the sun, moon, and stars:
"There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars" (verse 41)
I don't know why Paul didn't mention the name of the
third glory. Through latter-day revelation(D&C 76) we
have learned its name (Telestial), and that there are
three distinct glories or kingdoms in heaven.
If heaven is one dwelling and not many why in John
14:2 are we told "In my Father’s house are many mansions;" ?
GREGORY - How come LDS teach that the 12 tribes are lost?
According to the Bible, the tribes were not lost - the
house of Israel was represented in Jerusalem
at the time of the crucifixion (Acts 2:22, 36). When
Peter addressed the men if Israel in verse 22, he was
saying that the house of Israel was represented in
verse 36. Also, every living member of every tribe
does not need to be present in order for the house of
Israel to be represented.
JOEL -
"Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of
Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles
and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the
midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Therefore let all the house of Israel know
assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye
have crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:22, 36)
Isaiah warned that the Assyrian army would become "the
rod of [God's] anger" (Isa. 10:5) and the prophecy was
fulfilled when the Assyrians took most of the people
in the northern tribes of Israel into captivity (2
Kings 17:5-6, 23), thus scattering Israel.
James mentions the scattered condition of the
tribes(James 1:1), and Jesus tells how He must go to
these "other sheep" to bring the gospel.(John
10:14-16)
But we have never said that all 12 tribes of Israel
are lost; we only say that 10 tribes are lost and must
some day be gathered again(D&C 110:11, Article of Faith #10).
The people in the scriptures you refer to are from the
tribe of Judah who were not lost, so of course Israel
could be represented by them.
GREGORY - Isn’t the whole concept of Heavenly Father having a
Heavenly Father, etc impossible - that means that the
first god in the large number of gods did not derive
his source from another, and therefore always existed
without cause. As an uncaused god exists, then this
destroys the LDS concept of exaltation, because a
unique, infinite God would exist above all their
finite gods. Also, Isaiah stating God that no God
existed before Him. Jesus pre-existed eternally, with no BEGINNING (John 1:1)
JOEL - Yes it is impossible for our finite minds to be able
to comprehend such a thing, and we don't profess to
understand it fully now. We only know from latter-day
revelation that eternal progression has been going on
in the eternal past and will continue on into the
eternal future. There never was a "first God" as you
say. There have been an infinate number of Gods over
an infinate number of universes in the past and in the
future.
Is this really so hard to believe as it is to
believe that our God never had a beginning?
In the scriptures, such as Isaiah, God speaks only of
this universe. As far as we are concerned there are no
other gods because we don't worship them; we only
worship one God.
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."(John 1:1)
You use this scripture to prove that Jesus existed
eternally. If that is so then how can there be a
"beginning" as the scripture indicates? The question
is, the beginning of what? The rest of that chapter in
John goes on to talk about the creation of things. So
perhaps it is talking about the beginning of our
universe. If it is, and Jesus is eternal, then what
was Jesus before that beginning?
We do believe that He existed eternally in some form.
He has however, gone through some changes through
time. Before He was born to this earth He existed
first as an intellegence in the eternal past, destined
to become our God. Then as a spiritual being without
flesh and bone as a spirit child of His Father, but
still a God. He created the heavens and the earth. He
was the God of the Old Testament. He came to earth and
obtained a body, brought us His gospel, suffered for
our sins, and died and was ressurected with a body of
flesh and bones as His Father has. He is now our God
and will always will be. But of course we have learned
all this through latter-day revelation which you would
not recognize.
GREGORY - In 1 Corinthians 12:28, Paul lists some of the gift
offices of the church.
These offices are part of a discussion on the
spiritual gifts in the context of chapter 12. Here,
Paul does not say that there are 12 with the gift
of apostleship, or 3 with the gift of prophecy, but
leaves such numbers wide open because many had these
gifts. Also, Paul presents apostles first and prophets
second. Doesn't this go against the belief that 12
apostles are necessary today and Prophets in the
Latter-day Saint faith being of a higher position that
the apostles also?
JOEL -
"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles,
secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that
miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments,
diversities of tongues." (1 Corinthians 12:28)
I don't think the intention of this scripture was to
suggest an unlimited number for the office of Apostle
or to place these things in a particular order of
importance. It is simply listing the characteristics
of Christ's church and Apostles just happened to be on
the top of the list. The Bible does record the
replacement of Judas with Mathias(Acts 1:15-26) thus
demonstrating the importance of having twelve in the
quorum.
Actually in our Church Apostles and Prophets are on an
equal in terms of authority. All fifteen of the
Apostles, which includes the three in the First
Presidency are called Prophets, Seers and Revelators.
The President of the Church is the head prophet who
speaks for God in all church matters, but the other
Apostles are just as much prophets as he is. Notice
how that scripture uses the plural "prophets" and not
the singular "prophet"?
And in another sense we are all prophets to some
degree in our own stewardships.
President Wilford Woodruff said of Brigham Young to a
congregation:
"He is a prophet, I am a prophet, you are, and anybody
is a prophet who has the testimony of Jesus Christ,
for that is the spirit of prophecy" (Journal of
Discourses 13:165)
So we can all be prophets in a sense, but none of us
are Apostles except for the fifteen mentioned above.
So in this sense the position of Apostle is above that
of prophet.
GREGORY - How come LDS believe that living apostles and so forth
are necessary today?
In Eph. 2:20, this verse refers to the foundation of
the church (apostles, prophets and Jesus Christ) in
the past tense. The Church, present tense, is being
built upon the foundation. The foundation for such a
church in progress cannot be replaced without
destroying the structure.
Therefore, the foundation mentioned here is the
original 12 (with Judas replaced by Matthias, Acts
1:12-26).
JOEL - I can only say that we have learned by latter-day
revelation that in order to have Christ's true and
functional church on the earth, we must have these
offices in the priesthood to make it work.
If it was so important to replace Judas with Matthias
back in New Testament times to maintain the leadership
of the church; why would it not be important to have
all twelve positions in the Quorum of Twelve of Christ's church
today?
If the early church had not gone into apostasy they
would have continued to replace Apostles as they died
off so there would have always been twelve. But that
didn't happen, so when the time was right God restored
His church and once again called 12 Apostles. And just
as in the case of Judas and Matthias when one Apostle
is gone(for whatever reason) another one is called to
replace him to maintain twelve.
In another Ephesians scripture Paul said:
"And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and
some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the
ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:"(Eph
4:11-12)
If these are needed for the work of the ministry and perfecting of the saints(which are not "past tense"
activities), shouldn't we have them in our church today so those things can happen?
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