JOEL - I guess it all depends on your point of view and how you interpret the scripture. In your opinion, "BY ANY MEANS" includes proxy baptism, but like I said in my explanation, the Psalm scriptures (Read all of Ps 49:1-17) are talking about the false notion that a wealthy person can use his money to buy his own way, or his brother's way, into heaven.
We are not talking about paying money to try and buy our way or another person's way into heaven. We are simply performing a vital ordinance for those who did not get the opportunity here on earth. I agree that there is nothing we can do to redeem our brother; Christ does that completely if a person is worthy of such and desires it. But the scriptures say that:
"Except a man be born of water(baptism) and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:5)
There are many who have died without baptism, but we believe there is still hope for them. After He died Jesus went to preach to the spirits of those now in heaven:

18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:(1 Peter 3: 17-21)

If there were no hope for them it would have been a waste of time for Jesus to preach to them. And if Jesus preached to them because there was still a chance of salvation for them, how are they going to finally get into heaven if they were never baptized? (John 3:5)
Our act of performing the baptism for them does not redeem them in any way. It simply takes care of the John 3:5 ordinance requirement. The only way it would be a waste of time for us to do this is if they don't accept the gospel and the baptism in heaven and allow Christ's redemption to work for them.
In my opinion it would be very unfair if a person were condemend to hell forever simply because he never got a chance to hear and accept the gospel in this life. This is why we perform the proxy baptisms; just in case they accept it in the next life after it is preached to them. Much of how we understand this has come by way of latter-day revelation to our prophets so I can understand why you would not agree with it.
How do you explain what happens to those who never hear about Christ and His gospel and salvation before they die? Do they go to heaven or hell?

FRANK - "Jesus was talking to them in terms that they could understand ... the value of money (Ps 49:1-17). He then expands that to state that NO ONE can redeem any other person. Paying ransom does not always mean money but can be works, property or their own soul."

JOEL - Like I said much of this depends on how you interpret the scripture and your own opinion on what else it means besides what it says. Most Bible scholars agree that these scriptures are literally talking about the false notion that a rich man can pay his way or someone else's way into heaven. But after a man dies, his wealth means nothing.
"For when he dieth he shall carry nothing away: his glory shall not descend after him." (Psalm 49: 17)

FRANK - "The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"(1 Peter 3: 17-21)
Notice what is in parentheses (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh). The act of washing with water is symbolic because we accept Jesus.
The belief due to "good conscience" is what saves us, not the actual dunking itself."

JOEL - The act is of course symbolic and alone does not save us, but is nevertheless required of everyone who is to be saved:

"He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16: 16)
It is so important that Jesus Himself was also baptized "to fulfill all righteousness":
13 Then cometh Jesus from Galilee to Jordan unto John, to be baptized of him.
14 But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
15 And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness." (Matt 3:13-15)

JOEL - Our act of performing the baptism for them does not redeem them in any way. It simply takes care of the John 3:5 ordinance requirement.

FRANK - Then you determine it is SOMETHING that is necessary for redemption !! But no one can do anything for someone else's redemption."

JOEL - Once again that is your opinion based on your interpretation of the Psalms scripture. If we can't do anything for someone else's redemption then is it a waste of time for me to preach the gospel to others? Is it a waste of time to teach it to my children so that they can learn about the plan of salvation and what commandments God wants them to live so they can become the kind of person that can be saved?
Baptism is required for salvation, but the act itself, whether done for ourselves or for another person does not guarantee salvation. Like the Psalm scripture says:
"None of them can by any means redeem his brother."
I personally cannot redeem another person; Only Christ can do that. However I can help the other person qualify, by teaching him the gospel and being a good example of a child of God, and if necessary standing in to be baptized for him (1 Cor. 15: 29) . But even after all this, it is still up to God to cause the redemption to happen. Only He knows what is really in our hearts and whether we qualify.

FRANK - Teaching does not impact the act of salvation but only provides information and instruction to lead up the person's choice. The act of salvation, according to you, includes baptism but according to Psalms no one BY ANY MEANS can redeem anyone else.

JOEL - The act of salvation does NOT include baptism; but baptism is required before one can be saved in heaven. It doesn't cause salvation to happen but it is a prerequisite for it, just like teaching, learning and living the commandments of God. I don't know how God enacts salvation, but I know only He alone can do it; not me. Being baptized does not automatically cause it to happen; therefore when I am baptized for someone I have not saved (redeemed) him. Perhaps our individual basic understanding of these words and terms is different enough to cause us to not quite understand each other.

FRANK - "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark 16: 16)
This verse also shows that the word "baptise" .is not included in the part about being damned but only refers to believing. No reference to "he that is baptiseth not".

JOEL - Yet the verse does still say "He that believeth AND is baptized shall be saved". Sounds like both are required for salvation.

How do you explain what happens to those who never hear about Christ and His gospel and salvation before they die? Do they go to heaven or hell?

FRANK - "I leave that up to God."

JOEL - Yeah, I use that answer sometimes too, but not for this subject :-)

FRANK - You said that "it is still up to God to cause the redemption to happen" and "Only He knows what is really in our hearts and whether we qualify." You said that my reference to leaving such decisions up to God as to who is saved is not used for this subject ... yet you used the same reference in this subject. Aren't you contradicting yourself here?

JOEL - I meant that I leave the judgment part on who should be saved up to God. I was refering to the question about what happens to people who don't get the chance to hear the gospel while here on earth; whether they have a chance to go to heaven. That is not an unknown that I have to leave up to God. I know that He has provided a way for them to hear the gospel in the next life and that they can be saved.
I think we are just going to keep repeating ourselves. My original response to the question about proxy baptisms was that it is something that we have learned is an important ordinance through our latter-day prophets and additional scripture in our church. So therefore I do not interpret the Psalms 49 scripture the same way you do. I understand you can't accept this, but this is how I believe.

FRANK - Then this is the focus of this discussion. Christianity does not recognize baptism for the dead because baptism is a personal demonstration of the new believer of his new life in Jesus. It is not something that another person can do. Because it is not a requirement to receive the Holy Spirit, it is not considered one step of the salvation process, thus proxy baptism is totally unecessary and a mockery of the act. Saying this, it is an excellent example of why the Latter Day Saint religion is not considered Christian except by Latter Day Saints.

JOEL - Your opinion on this is of course based on how you personally decide to interpret the Bible. There are many Christians of different faiths who disagree on doctrines (besides baptism) because of how they interpret the Bible.
In fact a few hundred years ago Catholics and Protestants fought and killed each other over the differences, yet they all consider themselves Christian.
Here's an interesting quote from former President Jimmy Carter, speaking about how other Christian Churches treat the Mormon Church:

"I think the worst thing that we can do, among the worst things we can do, as believers in Christ, is to spend our time condemning others, who profess faith in Christ and try to have a very narrow definition of who is and who is not an acceptable believer and a child of God."
"Too many leaders now, I think, in the Southern Baptist Convention and in other conventions, are trying to act as the Pharisees did who were condemned by Christ, in trying to define who can and who cannot be considered an acceptable person in the eyes of God, In other words, they're making judgments on behalf of God. I think that's wrong." (Baptist Press 11/17/97)

Our Church believes that it has the fully restored gospel of Jesus Christ and that while other Churches contain many true Christian doctrines, they don't have all of it. Yet I would never tell a member of one of these other Churches that he is not Christian.

FRANK - Maybe not, but your founder told the world that all other denominations were wrong which is not the same thing as saying that they "contain many true doctrines."

JOEL - While it's true the LDS Church does not follow the traditional deffinition of the term "Christian", the fact that we worship Christ and believe that we follow his teachings should alone qualify us to be called Christian.

FRANK - Which Christ are you talking about? The one who is God or the one who is "a god"? The one who remained unmarried or the one who was a polygamist? The one who has no siblings or the one who is the spirit brother of Satan?

JOEL - Good bye Frank